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PostPosted: Thu Sep 06, 2007 10:42 pm 
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Joined: Tue Apr 19, 2005 10:30 am
Posts: 50
Last weekend I rebuilt my working knoppmyth r5d1 system. After the problems with zap2it I had to do something or do without the schedules.

I purchased a new hard disk with the idea I could always fall back to the
old install. I didn't double check the default setting of the jumpers on the
PATA drive. I thought it was set to master by default but it turned out
it was set to slave. The installer works up until the point it makes the
file system on the drive. I believe the knoppmyth installer for r5f1 and
r5e50 both assume the disk will be hdaxxx. If you have the first drive
as a slave then it ends up being hdbxxx. The installation hangs and
you get no error messages.

To wrap up a long story I've stopped using knoppmyth and switched to
mythdora. Even after correcting the hard disk problem neither of the
two latest versions of knoppmyth would install anything close to a working
system. I used exactly the same hardware, with the exception of the
disk drive, that I used with r5d1. The "improvements" made in these
revisions have made it incompatible with hardware that used to work
fine. Mythdora wasn't 100% either, but it was a lot closer to working
than knoppmyth. After a full weekends struggle I finally have a box
where everything works. I finally have a working dvd player and remote
control!

If you guys making knoppmyth care about it's future you need
to redouble your efforts. You've got a lot of catching up to do


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 06, 2007 11:08 pm 
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Joined: Fri Sep 19, 2003 6:37 pm
Posts: 2659
Location: Whittier, Ca
uzik wrote:
If you guys making knoppmyth care about it's future you need
to redouble your efforts. You've got a lot of catching up to do
You have a particular issue, yet you are not really providing enough details. To boot, you are using a very old version. The least releases will auto install to any hard drive. If you care about KnoppMyth as a user, then when you encounter issues, you need to bring it to our attention and provide details. Myself and the testers don't have unlimited hardware, we cannot test for every possible hardware combination that is out there... At any rate, I hope you are enjoying MythDora.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 06, 2007 11:21 pm 
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Joined: Tue Mar 22, 2005 9:18 pm
Posts: 1422
Location: Brisbane, Queensland, Australia
Dude,

I am sorry to hear that you have problems with KnoppMyth but your assumptions are all wrong. When you run the auto-installer it actually asks you which drive you want to install too, I believe R5F1 also allows an auto install to SATA drives now as well.

It is bitterly disappointing to me (and I suspect others too) that you have so coarsely criticised KnoppMyth. I will give you some comparisons on KnoppMyth and Mythdora that I am aware of, please others add to this list if you want.

Support:
KnoppMyth has over 90000 posts with over 26000 registered users
MythDora has over 11000 posts with an unknown number of users

Size does matter:
KnoppMyth fits on a single CD and includes the ability to run the frontend directly off the CD
MythDora takes 2 CDs or a DVD

PVR 350:
KnoppMyth includes support for this hardware and is stringently tested
Mythdora, quoted from their website:
Quote:
*** PVR-350 users that want to use TV-out will need to install the ivtv_xdriver and video4linux packages during install.
*** PVR-x50/500 users may experience problems with ivtv if video4linux is installed. Do not install this unless you need it for DVB or TV-out for the 350.


nVidia Drivers:
KnoppMyth includes new and legacy drivers automatically installing the one you need dependent on the detected video card.
MythDora includes Latest Nvidia 9755 & 9631 Legacy drivers, with 8776 and 7184 legacy drivers available via custom package selection (Which one do you pick?)

Installation Method:
KnoppMyth auto-install works fine for 99% of the user base
-With the auto install option you still get to chose which HDD you want the install to go too
MythDora states: "Preferred install is custom but auto still works"
-With the auto install option it uses your first HDD and doesn't give you any warnings, except on the web page for the release.

This is just a small quick comparison scratching the surface of what the differences are between the two packages. I can't comment on the testing that goes into MythDora, but I do know that the testing of KnoppMyth is extensive. (An example is the testers are up to the 23rd iteration of the test version)

It is disappointing to hear that your hardware had a problem, but I don't recall anywhere in the forums where you posted specific questions with explicit details of your hardware.

In conclusion, the efforts of the developer (i.e. Cecil) do not need to be redoubled, as he already does a wonderful job, producing, supporting and extending a excellent product that you pay how much for?

<edit>Added some more comparison findings</edit>

_________________
Girkers


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2007 12:23 am 
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Joined: Tue Jan 24, 2006 1:29 am
Posts: 157
Location: Brisbane, Australia
what an idiot. This is just the kind of stupid comment that cecil and others need to see while working huge hours on the upcoming release...

if you had posted some details plenty of users on this forum would have helped you through your issues. Jumping on here and shooting insults is pointless


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2007 6:07 am 
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Joined: Sat Sep 02, 2006 9:17 am
Posts: 359
uzik wrote:
I didn't double check the default setting of the jumpers on the PATA drive. I thought it was set to master by default but it turned out
it was set to slave.

What brand of hard drive sets the jumper to anything other than "Cable Select" I'm pretty sure that's been the default since ATA100.

uzik wrote:
The "improvements" made in these
revisions have made it incompatible with hardware that used to work
fine.

Try installing Vista on a two year old PC, and let me know how that goes. KM does an amazing job of maintaining HW compatibility; Heck if Cecil was willing to simply kiss hardware goodbye we would have R5Fx now with a "too bad for users of pvr-350's TV out." Even if you're right and KM dropped support for some unspecified piece of HW in your box, time marches on and old hardware becomes obsolete. -- that doesn't mean the word "improvements" needs sarcasm-quotes.


Cecil et al, You truly need to redouble your efforts. Can't you update the hardware detection to figure out when there is a nut loose on the keyboard?


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2007 6:45 am 
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Joined: Tue Apr 19, 2005 10:30 am
Posts: 50
cecil wrote:
You have a particular issue, yet you are not really providing
enough details. To boot, you are using a very old version


I tired the latest version, r5f1, then the previous version when it did not work. R5d1 for the most part worked. Previous versions I tried worked
less well. My experience was that upgrading would mean I would have a
different set of non functional features. I left well enough alone once I
got d1 to a somewhat workable state.

cecil wrote:
The least releases will auto install to any hard drive.


It didn't work so I can't say your statement is accurate.

cecil wrote:
Try installing Vista on a two year old PC, and let me know how that goes


So I should buy new hardware? When what I have works just fine?
You blast microsoft for having a poor vista install that doesn't handle
old hardware and then justify doing the exact same thing with knoppmyth.

I'm sorry you disagree with my conclusions. I didn't insult you
sp why are you insulting me? It's not OK when others do bad things,
but when you do it's fine. Take a look at yourself first before getting too
enabling that nut detector.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2007 7:13 am 
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Joined: Tue Apr 19, 2005 10:30 am
Posts: 50
Girkers wrote:
Dude,

I am sorry to hear that you have problems with KnoppMyth but your assumptions are all wrong. When you run the auto-installer it actually asks you which drive you want to install too, I believe R5F1 also allows an auto install to SATA drives now as well.


There was only one drive in the box. I took the default values on the automatic install. There shouldn't have been any way it could have failed.
After it shows 'making the filesystem' the disk activity light is active for a bit then stops. It sits at '14% complete' forever. I guessed they called
mkfs from a shell script with the wrong parameter and didn't check the
return code.


Girkers wrote:
It is bitterly disappointing to me (and I suspect others too) that you have so coarsely criticised KnoppMyth. I will give you some comparisons on KnoppMyth and Mythdora that I am aware of, please others add to this list if you want.


I understand and can sympathize. You've chosen a very difficult thing to
do. Sometimes life is unpleasant. Hopefully we all learn from our
bad experiences and grow.

The unpleasant facts are that someone made a mistake in the code and someone decided to remove support for my older hardware. Someone
chose to turn away possible installs of knoppmyth. Mythdora chose
differently. If you want more installs than Mythdora you're going to have
to support old hardware. I bought the hardware I did specifically after
checking to make sure it was compatible with knoppmyth.



Girkers wrote:
Support:
KnoppMyth has over 90000 posts with over 26000 registered users
MythDora has over 11000 posts with an unknown number of users


I've been a member here a long time. I've even contributed
to the community by sharing scripts to convert video for use with
other systems. (after the divide by zero error with ffmpeg broke
nuvexport).

Girkers wrote:
nVidia Drivers:
KnoppMyth includes new and legacy drivers automatically installing the one you need dependent on the detected video card.
MythDora includes Latest Nvidia 9755 & 9631 Legacy drivers, with 8776 and 7184 legacy drivers available via custom package selection (Which one do you pick?)


Neither myth install worked with my geforce2 nvidia card.

Girkers wrote:
Installation Method:
KnoppMyth auto-install works fine for 99% of the user base


After viewing the volume of bug reports on the forums I think your
figure is extremely optimistic. I've tried to install 5 different versions
of knoppmyth over several years. The video card detection worked about
half the time. The dvd player never worked correctly. The sound didnt
work on one version. The network card didn't work on the last two
versions.


Girkers wrote:
It is disappointing to hear that your hardware had a problem, but I don't recall anywhere in the forums where you posted specific questions with explicit details of your hardware.


Having done that in the past I knew it would take many days of debugging
to get it to work. the Mythdora install got everything except the video
card working on the first try. Why waste the time when you don't have
to?

Again, sorry for your pain but I'm being honest and thought the knoppmyth community deserved a chance to respond. Thanks for
not being insulting ;)


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2007 7:18 am 
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Joined: Tue Apr 19, 2005 10:30 am
Posts: 50
soundoff wrote:
what an idiot. This is just the kind of stupid comment that cecil and others need to see while working huge hours on the upcoming release...

if you had posted some details plenty of users on this forum would have helped you through your issues. Jumping on here and shooting insults is pointless


I think it's exactly the right kind of comment for them to see. I had
hardware that worked fine with their software last week. This week
it doesn't. There are people still using old hardware. If they want
to support those people they need to know they're still out there.

P.S. Thanks for the insult. I really appreciate you jumping in here with
it. It shows what a quality person you are when not supervised.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2007 8:12 am 
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Joined: Sat Feb 11, 2006 5:26 pm
Posts: 282
Location: Winnipeg - Canada
uzik wrote:
soundoff wrote:
what an idiot. This is just the kind of stupid comment that cecil and others need to see while working huge hours on the upcoming release...

if you had posted some details plenty of users on this forum would have helped you through your issues. Jumping on here and shooting insults is pointless


I think it's exactly the right kind of comment for them to see. I had
hardware that worked fine with their software last week. This week
it doesn't. There are people still using old hardware. If they want
to support those people they need to know they're still out there.

P.S. Thanks for the insult. I really appreciate you jumping in here with
it. It shows what a quality person you are when not supervised.


They also need to know what hardware you are trying to use, and what problems you are running into. Things you didn't offer or explain. In fact, you didn't even raise any alert that there was a problem until you were already "gone".

You did zero to help the situation, and everything to irritate and jab at the people who are pouring their free time and energy into this product.

_________________
Currently Running:
Too lazy to update this with my current hardware, I'll redo it during my next install =)


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2007 10:36 am 
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Joined: Sat Sep 02, 2006 9:17 am
Posts: 359
uzik wrote:

cecil wrote:
Try installing Vista on a two year old PC, and let me know how that goes


So I should buy new hardware? When what I have works just fine?
You blast microsoft for having a poor vista install that doesn't handle
old hardware and then justify doing the exact same thing with knoppmyth.

I'm sorry you disagree with my conclusions. I didn't insult you
sp why are you insulting me? It's not OK when others do bad things,
but when you do it's fine. Take a look at yourself first before getting too
enabling that nut detector.


That was me that said the bit about Vista, not Cecil and while I find being mistaken for Cecil flattering, for his sake, I need to clear that up. and I didn't "blast" MS I only drew the comparison to point out that KM provides much better support for older hardware.

I seem to be reading between the lines, that you encountered two problems.

first
Install failed on mkfs when installing to a single drive system where the single drive was misconfigured as a slave. -- Without doing any research, and presuming that you are correct, this is what we would call a secondary bug; meaning it only shows up AFTER something else has gone wrong. Generally, the primary bug takes priority and the secondary is dealt with based on the likelihood of the first and second combined. Given the somewhat unlikely scenario of a masterless slave drive, I would expect the second failure to be extremely rare even if happens 100% of the time the first failure happens. If I were in charge of prioritizing Cecil's To-Do list I would put the "mkfs locking" bug at the bottom of his list. In the meantime, what they would need is some investigation to step through the problem and verify that the issue is in one of the KM install scripts, or in mkfs (mkfs.ext3?) I believe most OS's go Squirrelly if there is a masterless slave; this may not even be KM's fault. Will you volunteer to to the initial research?

Second
You seem to be claiming that some piece of hardware is no longer supported. What piece of hardware? make? model? firmware rev? c'mon give us something to go on. are you saying your boned-up harddrive is not supported? If you're talking about your video card, you say neither myth worked. How is that KM's fault? blame nVidia.

finally
I sometimes find it frustrating the way forum members sometimes pounce on noobs: "Search before you post," and "don't ask when the next release is coming" etc, but that's part of the culture around here. What NO ONE likes is posts in the form of "KM Sucks; I'm going elsewhere." If that's the way you feel, just go and shut up -- no need for a parting shot. If KM sucks that bad and none of us realizes it, we're too dumb to be enlightened by your observations anyway. What makes these "KM Sucks" posts ten times worse is when there's a flavor of "Cecil and crew don't work hard enough."

Your initial post hit both peeves. If KM is that bad ask for your money back I don't know how hard Cecil works on KM, but its a hellofalot harder than you or I, and I for one am grateful. What did you want in response to your post? Did you honestly think KM had such a fatal flaw, and you were the first to uncover it? You post flame-bait then get disappointed when you catch heat? What can I say?

Enjoy Mythdora; they have a great crew too.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2007 10:49 am 
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Joined: Fri May 21, 2004 11:55 pm
Posts: 1206
Location: Silicon Valley, CA
Next time you participate in an open-source project, be prepared to provide DETAILS on what went wrong, not just "you removed support for my <unnamed> hardware."

What can I add but "don't let the door hit you in the ass."

_________________
Do you code to live, or live to code?
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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2007 4:48 pm 
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Site Admin
Joined: Fri Sep 19, 2003 6:37 pm
Posts: 2659
Location: Whittier, Ca
I'm locking this... If KnoppMyth fails for someone and they should to move to something else, so be it. The least they could do is quote me accurate... I never said anything about vista. Now, I have to go wash out my mouth.


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