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 Post subject: 120Hz LCD HDTV's
PostPosted: Thu Dec 04, 2008 9:51 am 
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Joined: Thu Sep 27, 2007 5:44 pm
Posts: 336
Background:
I have been running KM for about a year now with R5F27 and everything has been running smoothly for SDTV since working out a few bugs early on. My system details are here: http://mysettopbox.tv/phpBB2/viewtopic. ... highlight=
I think that the only thing I have added to the setup was a dongle for digital audio on the motherboard to allow 5.1 audio through my surround sound system.
End of background

Now, after saying that I did not plan on ever using this for HD, I am looking at some HDTV's since they have dropped a ton in price and changed my mind :P. Always being a budget buyer, I am looking at the Vizio's from Sam's Club and notice they have to very similar 42" models. One is 120 Hz, the other is standard 60 Hz.

a) Is there any benefit to 120 Hz over 60 Hz when using Knoppmyth?

b) Is one going to be easier to configure for KM than the other?

c) Would I be better off using component or DVI->HDMI?

From the reading I have done, neither will probably be plug and play. While the TV's have VGA inputs, it appears that they need either HDMI or component for 1080p. It seems that most people use DVI->HDMI cables for KM, but maybe this is because more video cards have DVI than component outputs. I would end up using an HDHomerun for the Hi Def decoding, so hopefully my system would be capable of HD as long as I don't load it too much until performing some upgrades.

I have been unable to find custom modelines for either TV, so if anybody has those available, that is appreciated too :)

120Hz P/N SV420XVT1A http://www.samsclub.com/shopping/naviga ... tem=408191
60 Hz P/N VS420 http://www.samsclub.com/shopping/naviga ... tem=414940


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 Post subject: Re: 120Hz LCD HDTV's
PostPosted: Thu Dec 04, 2008 11:29 am 
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Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2005 8:55 pm
Posts: 1381
Location: Farmington, MI USA
knappster wrote:
a) Is there any benefit to 120 Hz over 60 Hz when using Knoppmyth?
Not specific to KM, no. A true 120Hz HDTV refreshes faster, thus giving you smoother fast-action scenes (sports, action movies, etc.). Choose the 120Hz model if it's within your other requirements.

knappster wrote:
b) Is one going to be easier to configure for KM than the other?
Nope, same routine either way.

knappster wrote:
c) Would I be better off using component or DVI->HDMI?
I would opt for DVI->HDMI.

knappster wrote:
From the reading I have done, neither will probably be plug and play. While the TV's have VGA inputs, it appears that they need either HDMI or component for 1080p. It seems that most people use DVI->HDMI cables for KM, but maybe this is because more video cards have DVI than component outputs. I would end up using an HDHomerun for the Hi Def decoding, so hopefully my system would be capable of HD as long as I don't load it too much until performing some upgrades.
AFAIK the only thing delivering 1080p at this point is BluRay and the gaming consoles (PS3, Xbox, etc).

knappster wrote:
I have been unable to find custom modelines for either TV, so if anybody has those available, that is appreciated too :)
Don't really need modelines anymore, see http://www.mythtv.org/wiki/index.php/Co ... DTV#NVIDIA


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Dec 04, 2008 11:57 am 
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Joined: Wed Feb 08, 2006 6:13 pm
Posts: 480
Location: IN
I think your combination of Sempron 3400+ and only 512 MB of RAM is going to struggle a little bit with HD.

It might be time to visit Newegg and look at an Athlon 5200+ or similar and 2 GB of RAM. I think you would be pleased with the results and it should be well under $100.

Martian

_________________
ABIT NF-M2 nView | Athlon 64 X2 3800+ | 2GB DDR2 800 | HDHomerun | GeForce 6150 (onboard) | WD 640 GB SATA HD | DVD-RW (sata) | StreamZap IR receiver with Logitech Harmony remote

Vizio 37" LCD HDTV (1080p)


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 Post subject: Re: 120Hz LCD HDTV's
PostPosted: Thu Dec 04, 2008 12:49 pm 
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Joined: Thu Sep 27, 2007 5:44 pm
Posts: 336
slowtolearn wrote:
knappster wrote:
a) Is there any benefit to 120 Hz over 60 Hz when using Knoppmyth?
Not specific to KM, no. A true 120Hz HDTV refreshes faster, thus giving you smoother fast-action scenes (sports, action movies, etc.). Choose the 120Hz model if it's within your other requirements.

knappster wrote:
b) Is one going to be easier to configure for KM than the other?
Nope, same routine either way.

knappster wrote:
c) Would I be better off using component or DVI->HDMI?
I would opt for DVI->HDMI.

knappster wrote:
From the reading I have done, neither will probably be plug and play. While the TV's have VGA inputs, it appears that they need either HDMI or component for 1080p. It seems that most people use DVI->HDMI cables for KM, but maybe this is because more video cards have DVI than component outputs. I would end up using an HDHomerun for the Hi Def decoding, so hopefully my system would be capable of HD as long as I don't load it too much until performing some upgrades.
AFAIK the only thing delivering 1080p at this point is BluRay and the gaming consoles (PS3, Xbox, etc).

knappster wrote:
I have been unable to find custom modelines for either TV, so if anybody has those available, that is appreciated too :)
Don't really need modelines anymore, see http://www.mythtv.org/wiki/index.php/Co ... DTV#NVIDIA


Thanks for the info. Continuing the discussion on 1080p... with these TV's being capable of 1080p, do I just blindly set it up for that, or do I need to match it to the way it is being recorded? If something is recorded in 720p is it going to output ok on 1080i or 1080p? I've never dealt with HD before so I am just trying to get my bearings.


Martian wrote:
I think your combination of Sempron 3400+ and only 512 MB of RAM is going to struggle a little bit with HD.

It might be time to visit Newegg and look at an Athlon 5200+ or similar and 2 GB of RAM. I think you would be pleased with the results and it should be well under $100.

Martian


Yes. I would like to decide on the TV first and at least get things configured and working somewhat before I decide how far to upgrade everything. Plus I am sure there are people out there who would like to know how their similar systems might perform.


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 Post subject: Re: 120Hz LCD HDTV's
PostPosted: Thu Dec 04, 2008 7:36 pm 
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Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2005 8:55 pm
Posts: 1381
Location: Farmington, MI USA
knappster wrote:
Thanks for the info. Continuing the discussion on 1080p... with these TV's being capable of 1080p, do I just blindly set it up for that, or do I need to match it to the way it is being recorded? If something is recorded in 720p is it going to output ok on 1080i or 1080p? I've never dealt with HD before so I am just trying to get my bearings.
1080[i/p] gives you more pixels vs. 720p, but depending on your source and the television (and your viewing habits) you may find one or the other better for you. Google "720p vs. 1080i" and you may be overwhelmed with information. You will need to play with different configurations to find the best viewing experience for yourself.
See http://reviews.cnet.com/720p-vs-1080p-hdtv/ for more information, and be sure to scroll down to the bottom where he points to 120Hz LCDs. In short, what looks good is entirely subjective.

knappster wrote:
Martian wrote:
I think your combination of Sempron 3400+ and only 512 MB of RAM is going to struggle a little bit with HD.

It might be time to visit Newegg and look at an Athlon 5200+ or similar and 2 GB of RAM. I think you would be pleased with the results and it should be well under $100.

Martian


Yes. I would like to decide on the TV first and at least get things configured and working somewhat before I decide how far to upgrade everything. Plus I am sure there are people out there who would like to know how their similar systems might perform.
Martian brings up a good point: If your only source for HD is your Myth box, you may be underpowered with your current setup which may produce disappointing initial results. IMHO, if you have cable and the TV is QAM capable, hook it up to cable first, get the settings on the TV where you like them, then work on hooking up your KM box.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Dec 04, 2008 8:39 pm 
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Joined: Sat Dec 24, 2005 11:33 am
Posts: 400
Location: Kitsap Peninsula, Wa., United States
Just a comment on 720p, 1080i and 1080p.
Broadcast TV is going to be limited at this time to 720p or 1080i maximum with the available bandwidth and the compression algorithm. This has also been true of essentially all of the Cable solutions and Satellite solutions I have looked at for the same reasons above.

1080p content was only available via Blu-Ray or hd-dvd until...

Just tonight while watching Live TV I saw an advertisement from Dish Network saying they now provide HD DVR with the subscription and 1080p content.

So that may change the whole market shortly.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Dec 04, 2008 8:56 pm 
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Joined: Fri Apr 02, 2004 10:08 am
Posts: 1637
Location: Virginia, USA
Also a quick addition on the advantage of 120 Hz TV sets.

Film is 24fps. NTSC TV runs at 30fps (actually 60 fields per second, two fields per frame, so 30 frames per second).

24 doesn't go into 30 (or 60) evenly, so you have to do something called 2-3 pulldown to get a movie to play back properly on a 30fps TV. Not every film frame plays back for the same amount of time as a result, and this introduces "judder," which you can see when the camera pans horizontally.

The magic of a 120 Hz refresh rate is that both 24 and 30 go into 120 evenly. So you don't introduce judder when playing back film, and regular 30fps TV plays back correctly too.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telecine#2:3_pulldown
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telecine#Telecine_judder


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Dec 04, 2008 9:26 pm 
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Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2005 8:55 pm
Posts: 1381
Location: Farmington, MI USA
bigbro wrote:
Just tonight while watching Live TV I saw an advertisement from Dish Network saying they now provide HD DVR with the subscription and 1080p content.

So that may change the whole market shortly.
Any idea where the 1080p content is originating from? I haven't heard of any studios producing 1080p - yet.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Dec 04, 2008 9:33 pm 
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Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2005 8:55 pm
Posts: 1381
Location: Farmington, MI USA
ceenvee703 wrote:
Also a quick addition on the advantage of 120 Hz TV sets.

Film is 24fps. NTSC TV runs at 30fps (actually 60 fields per second, two fields per frame, so 30 frames per second).

24 doesn't go into 30 (or 60) evenly, so you have to do something called 2-3 pulldown to get a movie to play back properly on a 30fps TV. Not every film frame plays back for the same amount of time as a result, and this introduces "judder," which you can see when the camera pans horizontally.

The magic of a 120 Hz refresh rate is that both 24 and 30 go into 120 evenly. So you don't introduce judder when playing back film, and regular 30fps TV plays back correctly too.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telecine#2:3_pulldown
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telecine#Telecine_judder
Very nicely put, this should be a FAQ! Perhaps a writeup on the wiki?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Dec 04, 2008 11:12 pm 
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Joined: Thu Sep 27, 2007 5:44 pm
Posts: 336
slowtolearn wrote:
Martian brings up a good point: If your only source for HD is your Myth box, you may be underpowered with your current setup which may produce disappointing initial results. IMHO, if you have cable and the TV is QAM capable, hook it up to cable first, get the settings on the TV where you like them, then work on hooking up your KM box.


Yeah, that's a good idea. Currently that's the only option I have as I don't have the HDHomeRun. I would probably check out the HD settings that way and try to at least get it setup to display KM and play my standard def stuff. It will be interesting to see how that looks...

Regarding the 120 Hz deal, does that have to be driven by the video card to be useful? According to the nvidia pages, the onboard 6150 that I have only supports 75 Hz (listed at 1920x1440 resolution): http://www.nvidia.com/object/mobo_gpu_f ... tml#gf6nf4
I'm not sure if that's 100% accurate... But I doubt I would spring the 50% more for the 120 Hz anyway.

I'll probably be making a decision tomorrow or Saturday on whether I will pursue this now or wait until after the holidays.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Dec 05, 2008 9:07 am 
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Joined: Sat Dec 24, 2005 11:33 am
Posts: 400
Location: Kitsap Peninsula, Wa., United States
Quote:
Any idea where the 1080p content is originating from? I haven't heard of any studios producing 1080p - yet.


No Clue! I hadn't heard of any either. I just noted they definitely said 1080p as I went back and checked it.

Maybe like some Cable companies they are doing some special sampling and subsequent compression to make it appear as 1080p content.

DishNet owns most of their satellites and uplink equipment so they most likely have the bandwidth to send it.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Dec 05, 2008 11:56 am 
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Joined: Thu Sep 27, 2007 5:44 pm
Posts: 336
Best Buy actually has a Dynex brand 42" 1080p that is $100 cheaper than the Vizio and should be easier for me to find. Reviews on their website have been pretty positive (4.4/5 with 94 reviewers). Here is the product link on their website if anyone else is interested:

http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp ... 1306784758


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Dec 06, 2008 6:19 am 
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Joined: Thu Mar 02, 2006 5:42 pm
Posts: 410
Location: middleton wi usa atsc
I have a 1080p 120 Hz TV (sony kdl46z4100) connected the myth box with a 50 foot dvi -> hdmi cable plus stereo audio cable. I could never get it to look good with myth set to 1080i. I got lots of motion artifacts.

Setting myth to output everything at 1080p (with deinterlacing on and set to bob2x) fixed it. Everything looks great! I can't tell the difference between watching myth shows and watching live, over the air, HD shows (all my content is from over the air USA).

The 720p networks and the 1080i networks all look great. Myth scales everything to 1080p_60 before sending it to the tv. The TV takes care of creating the extra interpolated frames for 120 Hz.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Dec 07, 2008 5:06 pm 
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Posts: 336
I ended up picking up the Dynex HDTV on Friday, and a good thing because it's back up to the same price as the Vizio.

I was able to get it to work with component fairly easily with both 720p and 1080i, but for some reason it does not want to cooperate with 1080p... It's not the TV, though, because a friend of mine brought over his PS3 and we were able to get 1080p through hdmi with no problem.

Anyway... I have played with the settings for my standard def recordings to get the 16:9 ratio and a higher bitrate than before, but moreso now than with my previous TV I notice that (even though it's just analog SD), the quality is quite a bit better on the TV's tuner than through my KM box. Is this the case for everyone? Will this be the case for HD recordings with an HDHomerun? I appreciate your feedback.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Dec 07, 2008 9:35 pm 
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Posts: 905
Location: LA, CA
Knapp, maybe download some HD clips and play them thru your KM box. See what you get or can expect with a HD card recording OTA.


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