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PostPosted: Wed May 28, 2008 4:42 pm 
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nickrout wrote:
Please note that I am not making any criticism, I was just commenting that the common mentality will be "mythbuntu has 0.21, knoppmyth doesn't therefore mythbuntu is better".We all know thats not true, but thats a perception that some will carry.

We try and teach the ignorant, however if that doesn't work... Foxtrot the simple minded...

nickrout wrote:
As far as testing is concerned, no I didn't actually step up, but I did see that the requests earlier in this thread for a link to the release candidate went unanswered, so I didn't bother.

Then that is your error. I've never and will never post links to test releases in the general areas of the forum. I've always ask for those that want to help test to step up and PM me (or contact me in IRC). Simply put, I need to know that folks will provide feedback and help the entire community. I'm not going to put out a release candidate out just so someone could get MythTV X.Y.Z or a newer kernel.
nickrout wrote:
Cecil, I'd be happy to test, so let me know if I can help. The card is a USB rt2x00 based card that doesn't work properly in R5F27. Its a Linksys WUSB54GC. I know that kernel 2.6.23 doesn't have the drivers, but I thought it might be easier to install the rt2x00 drivers on the new knoppmyth than the old.
Just because the kernel doesn't include support, doesn't mean I won't patch the kernel or include the module. In the case of the rt2x00, KnoppMyth has included support for these devices for some time. I know it works for some of the testers. However if it doesn't work for all, I won't know unless someone steps up and says something. Or even better posts a fix and bring it to my attention.
nickrout wrote:
However I just got another USB based card which works on another chipset (zd1211 or something, sorry its at home) which I would be happy to test too.
Then you can help to ensure it just works...
nickrout wrote:
I realise its not a "one man band" but i guess it has a "one man bottleneck" in everything going through you. Again thats not a ctiticism, you no doubt get better quality control by testing and approving everything, and your dedication to getting the product right are why we keep returning :-)
It isn't a one man bottleneck either. I cannot test everything myself. I was very happy with a release I had some weeks back however, the testers reported and resolved other issues.

I simple want to make creating your own PVR as easy as possible. Again, for me I never have to release another version for KnoppMyth. And if you know what you are doing, you never have to wait for me to release another version just to get the latest MythTV. But at this point, KnoppMyth isn't for me. It is for the community.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed May 28, 2008 4:52 pm 
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cecil wrote:
But at this point, KnoppMyth isn't for me. It is for the community.
Actually, this is wrong. KnoppMyth was never for me. To put it briefly... I installed MythTV over 5 years ago on Linux Mandrake and it was a pain. I then found a way to make the entire process of install Linux, MythTV and other Open Source software easy. My reasoning in releasing KnoppMyth was to give something back to the Open Source community as a whole. I'm just fortunate that almost 5 years later, a community has formed around something I created.


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PostPosted: Wed May 28, 2008 7:19 pm 
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Location: Uniontown, PA
This discussion about a 'one-man' operation reminds me of the ONLY other Linux distro that I have actively used since about '94: Slackware.

I got interested in that distro because there was a single person at the helm. The goal is a stable and robust platform, either for a desktop or server system. Pat has been working on that forever, and I respect him for it. Sometimes Pat takes an entire year between releases and my systems never complain.

Cecil does the same with KM. He's the final QA check, and that's why I'm still using KM. R5.5 may have some great new features, like storage groups, but I'm willing to wait. Hell...I'm still tweaking my R5F27 setups, and not too worried about R5.5 arriving tomorrow, next week, or next month. I'm still looking forward to R6, and I believe that it'll have even more 'eye candy' that'll make the setup of a Linux PVR much easier for the folks that aren't interested in Linux internals.

Cecil. REST....get well. Without your health, you've got nothing.


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PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2008 2:04 am 
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Posts: 112
Location: Calgary, Alberta, Canada
nickrout wrote:
Please don't take this the wrong way cecil, but it seems to me that knoppmyth is suffering from being essentially a one man band. It is a while since 0.21 came out and both of your major "competitors" mythbuntu and mythdora are ahead. I know you will come out with a better product, but in terms or "market perception" you are currently behind the 8 ball.

How utterly Usenet of a comment.

If I were an unpaid developer, who poured my heart, soul, love and sweat into a program, I know how I'd react to this kind of post. Firstly I'd spin, sputter, and fume, with blood pressure rising, and face turning red. Next I might very well say "I don't need this crap," then shut things down and walk away for the night. How would you react under the same circumstances?

In short, this kind of message does not help get the release out sooner. The negative mental energy spent to process it, probably detracts from development and delays the release.

I would strongly suspect that the current problems Cecil et el, are trying to squash exist in both mythbuntu and mythdora. If there were simple solutions in either of those platforms, they would have been included in KM, and R5.5 would be out the door.

And I'd just bet if you had the affected hardware, you'd be one of the first and loudest to scream bloody murder.

And speaking of "market perception," wouldn't an "Installation Forum" full of complaints about some piece of hardware not working, under a new release do more damage to the brand, than taking a bit more time to get things right?

While I am certainly not comparing KM to Vista, it could easily be said that most of the damage to the Vista name came from hardware that wasn't supported "out of the box." Another element that dampened the excitement was expected features that were trimmed just so the product could get shipped. Lastly the delayed in product delivery killed the buzz. But the difference in that last point between KM and Vista, is a month or so, vs YEARS.

Almost every software product has some slippage between the expected shipping date, and the actual product release. I'm more than happy to wait for a well tested release, than having several patches to apply, or sub-point releases to download.


Last edited by ChapmanI on Fri May 30, 2008 12:11 am, edited 2 times in total.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2008 7:44 am 
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Joined: Thu Mar 25, 2004 11:00 am
Posts: 9551
Location: Arlington, MA
For the impatient:

1) Cecil was _really_ sick last week. We're talking so much pain they took him to the emergency room, and then a script for strong (do not drive or operate machinery grade) pain killers which make doing anything that requires mental focus nearly impossible. There are other developers with organized ways of doing intermediate testing patches but he's still the man when it comes to putting it all together.

2) The number of active testers is small. Of the 2 dozen or so who actually show up at all, only about half do so regularly, and maybe half of those have the skills to regularly troubleshoot problems. This isn't unusual in an unpaid volunteer project and probably better than most, especially considering how deep some of the problems are. Lots of people volunteer, realize how much real work is involved, and then silently fade from view.

3) 90% of our remaining bug list is "upstream issues" either with MythTV, other applications (mplayer), or various drivers (ALSA, DVB, ...) and finding viable workarounds sometimes takes more time than expected.

We really have been trying to provide more visibility into the planned and expected timing and current status for this release, but you're making that look like a failed effort. I'm beginning to suspect that R6 will revert to a strict "no comment" policy as a result.

Let's kill this thread now before Cecil has to lock it. It's already ceased to be productive or helpful.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2008 12:10 pm 
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Posts: 82
Location: Kangasala, Finland
cecil wrote:
The bottom line is, I see it as my duty to continually attempt to improve KnoppMyth (since I started it). If I don't, who will? And if it takes a little longer to get it right, then so be it. MUCH thanks to those that understand this and have stuck with me for almost 5 years now.


Cecil, being in your position is a bad thing. I bet you get all the bad stuff like bugs and angry queries about why something doesn't work, but very seldom any thanks.

This is off topic, yes, but I want to take this opportunity to thank you about the perfect product. I like it. Beats any commecial system I've come across. My wife likes it. Nine out of ten recordings are her interior shows. My three year old loves streaming cartoons from the net with it.

And I feel proud because I made the media central. (With a little help of ready-made distro known as KnoppMyth...)

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2008 2:41 pm 
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auttila wrote:
And I feel proud because I made the media central. (With a little help of ready-made distro known as KnoppMyth...)
:D


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2008 7:01 pm 
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Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2005 7:09 am
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This is off topic as well...

I've been on the road for nine weeks now, far away from my little lovely family. Three days ago Knoppmyth would not boot due to the "unable to write to tmp/x session dealie ma jigger". I pointed my wife to the wiki, where we found the needed answers, she ssh'd in via putty, deleted the log files, fixing the problem! If she could crow like a rooster, she would have!! Now she's "burnin' butter" with Denise Austin again, and all the time and money I spent building the Knoppmyth box is once again justified.

Hats off to Cecil, and to this wonderful community and all the support they give!!!

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2008 7:13 pm 
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Posts: 49
Look, if MythTV 0.21 is what you're waiting for, then you can easily install it from SVN on R5F27. Personally, I'm waiting for the updated kernel and other packages, and the KM enhancements that aren't included in stock MythTV, but if all you really care about is 0.21, it's not that hard to just install it. Here's the modified version of Watto's SVN install script I used to do so. Just paste this somewhere, cd to /usr/src and run it, and voila, you now have 0.21 on R5F27.

Code:
#!/bin/bash
echo "Welcome to Watto's compile/install MythTV script for Knoppmyth."

# Fatal Error function.
fatal_error () {
echo 1>&2 "Fatal error - $*, exiting."
exit 1
}

# Nice make function.
make_nice () {
/usr/bin/nice -n17 /usr/bin/make "$@"
}

# Athlon64 Compile Fix.
grep 'Athlon(tm) 64' /proc/cpuinfo >/dev/null && EXTRA_OPTS="--arch=athlon"

# User input.
TARGET=branches/release-0-21-fixes # Default to trunk
WAIT_FOR_USER=false
while [ -n "$1" ] ; do
case "$1" in
head)
TARGET=trunk
;;
fixes)
TARGET=branches/release-0-21-fixes
;;
pause)
WAIT_FOR_USER=true
;;
*)
echo
echo "Unknown command line parameter. Usage: mythsvn.sh [head|fixes] [pause]"
echo " Selecting head will compile from the SVN head,"
echo " Selecting fixes will compile the fixes branch,"
echo " Selecting pause will pause before installation."
exit 1
;;
esac
shift
done

# Download SVN.
/usr/bin/svn co http://svn.mythtv.org/svn/$TARGET/mythtv
/usr/bin/svn co http://svn.mythtv.org/svn/$TARGET/mythplugins
/usr/bin/svn co http://svn.mythtv.org/svn/$TARGET/myththemes

# we already have the source, so just update it
#cd /usr/src/mythtv
#svn update
#cd /usr/src/mythplugins
#svn update
#cd /usr/src/myththemes
#svn update
#cd /usr/src

# Backup custom menu.
/bin/cp -f /usr/share/mythtv/mainmenu.xml ./
/bin/cp -f /usr/share/mythtv/optical_menu.xml ./
/bin/cp -f /usr/share/mythtv/library.xml ./
/bin/cp -f /usr/share/mythtv/util_menu.xml ./

# Configure/make MythTV.
cd mythtv
./configure --disable-distcc --prefix=/usr --enable-proc-opt --enable-dvb --enable-xvmc --enable-xvmc-opengl --enable-opengl-vsync --enable-libdts $EXTRA_OPTS
export QTDIR=/usr/share/qt3
/usr/bin/qmake mythtv.pro
make_nice || fatal_error "The build failed!"

# Backup Knoppmyth and MythTV.
grep /usr/share/mythtv /myth/backup/backup.list >/dev/null ||
echo ./usr/share/mythtv >> /myth/backup/backup.list
sed -si~ -e 's:^/:./:' /myth/backup/backup.list
/usr/local/bin/mythbackup

# Pause before installation (optional)
[ "$WAIT_FOR_USER" = "true" ] && read -p "Please hit 'Any Key' to continue..."

# Stop all effected programs.
/etc/init.d/lirc stop
/etc/init.d/mythtv-backend stop
/etc/init.d/mysql stop

# Install MythTV and restore custom menus.
make_nice install || fatal_error "failed to install MythTV"
/bin/cp -f ../mainmenu.xml /usr/share/mythtv/
/bin/cp -f ../optical_menu.xml /usr/share/mythtv/
/bin/cp -f ../library.xml /usr/share/mythtv/
/bin/cp -f ../util_menu.xml /usr/share/mythtv/

# Configure and Install MythThemes.
cd ../myththemes/
./configure --prefix=/usr $EXTRA_OPTS
/usr/bin/qmake myththemes.pro
make_nice || fatal_error "failed to make MythThemes"
make_nice install || fatal_error "failed to install MythThemes"

# Restart everything.
/etc/init.d/mysql start
/etc/init.d/mythtv-backend start
/etc/init.d/lirc start
(sleep 5 ; /usr/bin/irexec -d /home/mythtv/.lircrc) &

# Configure, make, and install MythPlugins.
cd ../mythplugins/
./configure --prefix=/usr --enable-all $EXTRA_OPTS
/usr/bin/qmake mythplugins.pro
make_nice || fatal_error "failed to build MythPlugins"
make_nice install || fatal_error "failed to install MythPlugins"

# Configure and install MythStream
cd ../mythstream-0.18_1
/usr/bin/qmake mythstream.pro
make_nice || fatal_error "failed to build MythStream"
make_nice install || fatal_error "failed to install MythStream"

# Restart frontend to load plugins and update MythWeb.
cd ../mythplugins
/bin/cp -R -f mythweb/* /var/www/mythweb
/usr/share/mythtv/mythweb/modules/_shared/lang/build_translation.pl

# All done!
shutdown -r now
exit 0


Also, if there hadn't been an announcement that R5.5 was coming any day now back in March, and then subsequent forum posts that it's coming any day now every few weeks since then, people wouldn't be nearly as impatient.


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PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2008 9:04 am 
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Posts: 7
nickca wrote:
Also, if there hadn't been an announcement that R5.5 was coming any day now back in March, and then subsequent forum posts that it's coming any day now every few weeks since then, people wouldn't be nearly as impatient.


I agree with nickca. The backend on my box went wonky a few months ago (late February/early March), and I decided I wouldn't bother with it until the new version was released. It isn't all that big a deal, I don't really watch much TV and I've had other issues regarding networking to the living room, but if I hadn't thought the new release was just around the corner, I would've spent some time fixing it.

tjc wrote:
We really have been trying to provide more visibility into the planned and expected timing and current status for this release, but you're making that look like a failed effort. I'm beginning to suspect that R6 will revert to a strict "no comment" policy as a result.


I think I'd prefer that. I've been watching this thread daily for over a month now and it really hasn't been helping my patience.

I'm going to do my best to continue to sit and wait for the new release without any grumbling.

Cecil, and everyone else who works on this, thanks for a great product.

Also, Cecil, I hope you're feeling better.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2008 11:29 am 
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Joined: Sat Sep 02, 2006 9:17 am
Posts: 359
For the Communication Issue, I think the closed-mouth approach is more annoying for everyone than trying to give out information. I argue that the more info out there, the better; but I am sensitive to the concern that providing status would consume time that should be spent doing 'real' work, and would never be enough info to satisfy everyone.

I would suggest that there be a stop on use of the words 'hours', 'days', or even 'weeks' Perhaps answer the "when?" question with something like, "We need to resolve issues with SATA libraries and nVidea." This would allow people to know something is coming, while simultaneously dropping hints for areas where volunteers are needed. The posts that say "this week" or such are honestly trying to be helpful but do end up setting the stage for disappointment.

As for the community impatience.
<SoapBox>
My 2 cents: I work at a pretty major software company (not MS). Based on my company's jargon, I would describe Cecil's "Dev Team" more as "System Integrators" then "Developers." In my experience Integrator is the tougher job. IN THEORY their job is simple, just get the pieces you need and put them together. The reality is the pieces that are all supposed to work together rarely do. Generally, the defect list seems small, and easy to fix. However each fix that gets rolled in, is just another opportunity for Murphy's Law to bite you on the keister.

Here's the scenario: You assemble your system and find that ProgramA 2.0, doesn't work well with ProgramB 2.0. Research indicates that joy will be restored if you upgrade ProgramB to 2.1. So you try that only to learn that ProgramB 2.1 breaks Program C... and so on.

This process is frustrating enough when you're getting paid to work with vendors and sub contractors who are also being paid to make sure your stuff works. I can't begin to imagine the frustration of trying to do this as a volunteer and working with 'vendors' who are also volunteers. All while the 'customers' who aren't paying you are demanding product.

Most of us think that KM is 'just' a Linux install plus mythtv, but consider, there is really the Kernel, multiple sound drivers, multiple video drivers, multiple net drivers, multiple video players, a web server, a couple of File Server packages, SSH daemon, myth's backend, myth's frontend, myth plugins and skins, and a whole pile of stuff I'm forgetting. All of which have to have versions coordinated, and glue code/scripts written to make them play nice.

I haven't even mentioned installers and configuration; that's where the job gets really challenging...
</SoapBox>

I'm sure we would all like to see a release schedule, but I for one am satisfied that the team has committed to provide the product. Asking them for a schedule is actually asking them to commit to a schedule, which is a separate (and huge) burden. As professionals, committing to schedules often means overtime, short tempers, and sacrificing on personal pursuits just to hit the (usually artificial) deadline. I for one think the crew works hard enough, and doesn't need to add any more demands to the project.

Is it happy hour yet?


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PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2008 11:58 am 
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Joined: Fri Nov 18, 2005 9:22 am
Posts: 777
Location: spencerport, ny (USA)
jmckeown2 wrote:
I'm sure we would all like to see a release schedule....

IMO, a schedule won't ever be helpful. They're bad enough on commercial projects - you make your best guess, then unknowns rear up and bite you, and people scream at you for being late.

I don't think the MythTV project uses schedules, they use a roadmap/milestone approach instead. That may be more helpful here. People could see what's in the upcoming release, see the dependencies, and the answer is simple: it'll be released when the dependencies and issues are all resolved. There would be less whining, and perhaps more help.
Just my two cents, for what it's worth. And of course, myself and family appreciate the great work done here and all the way up the chain. We enjoy our KM box every night, and I've had a lot of fun and learned a lot, both digging around inside the box and here on the forums.
--
Chris


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2008 12:45 pm 
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Joined: Sun Jul 24, 2005 4:16 pm
Posts: 508
Location: Ft. Worth TX
& for people who need a Mythbox in a hurry, the current F27 works just great !


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2008 8:05 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jan 30, 2007 1:27 am
Posts: 299
I would suggest that there be a stop on use of the words 'hours', 'days', or even 'weeks'


I would suggest we ALL dig out our copies of 'The Mythical Man-Month' and give it a fresh read. Then relax and enjoy the perfectly capable boxes we have.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2008 8:46 pm 
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Joined: Tue Aug 09, 2005 2:09 pm
Posts: 107
cantator wrote:
This is off topic as well...

I've been on the road for nine weeks now, far away from my little lovely family. Three days ago Knoppmyth would not boot due to the "unable to write to tmp/x session dealie ma jigger". I pointed my wife to the wiki, where we found the needed answers, she ssh'd in via putty, deleted the log files, fixing the problem! If she could crow like a rooster, she would have!! Now she's "burnin' butter" with Denise Austin again, and all the time and money I spent building the Knoppmyth box is once again justified.

Hats off to Cecil, and to this wonderful community and all the support they give!!!


Man this made me laugh! I even had to read this one to my wife. :lol: What else would we be doing if we couldn't tinker/fix our Knoppmyth boxes.

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