Ok so please dont crucify me. I'm looking for some general neutral opinions. Which might be hard since im on the knoppmyth site.

I'm planning a LARGE movie streaming dvr setup. Probably somewhere in the order of 4 TB of usable storage. A co worker of mine and I are avid opensource fans (funny considering we're both windows developers). He has already tackled a smaller project using knoppmyth where he has his dvd's converted to run on his knoppmyth box, he also uses it as a dvr. Something the range of 1tb i think.

Anyway, he turned me on to knoppmyth and since then i've been highly interested, however today he mentioned the alternative of using mythbutu. I wanted to get the feedback of some of the seasoned vets here on their opinions before i go headlong into something complicated. Obviously there is going to be a learning curve but after that which is easier to run, maintain and interact with? Knoppmyth or Mythbutu?

Also, did some searching and there doesn't seem to be a definitive guide to setting up your system. I see a lot of "unofficial" LOOOONG drawn out guides to this process. And while I'm in no means downplaying the amount of work it might be, does anyone know of a more succinct install guide?

Thanks in advance.

noobie-nooberton...

i tried mythbuntu a month ago i think it was, 8.04 beta4 iirc, it mostly worked i guess, but i'm back to knoppmyth after 2-3 days of trying mythbuntu, it just isnt as polished.

If what you want is an appliance that does PVR, DVD changer, etc., then Knoppmyth is your distro. No Myth-based distro anywhere has put in nearly as much effort in making it work with diverse hardware with total focus on an appliance.

If you want something that is a Linux desktop that has some Myth functionality, then one of the other distros may be more suitable.

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I would second Liv2Cod's post.

If you want a dedicated MythTV box then KnoppMyth is the answer. If you want a desktop and MythTV, then Mythbuntu is a good choice. If you are only leaning towards Mythbuntu because the new MythTV release is not in KnoppMyth yet, then I would advise you to wait a little while longer for the next KnoppMyth release.

The Official guide is The Pamphlet. I understand the criticism about lack of polished docs, but I think the maintainers might get a little defensive. You see, they seem to have put more effort into the installer than into the docs. I would argue that the effort paid off. The meat of the official guide is "Answer the installers questions" -- how much documentation do you need for that.

I think reading the forum mischaracterizes the level of effort for a typical install. You read about the various problems and gotchas, and it the install seems frought with peril. No one posts "No help needed; a perfect install" threads. If I were to take a wild-ass guess about success of KM installs, I would say 95% of users install without incident; everything just works. 3% have problems which are the result of so-called clever people like myself shooting themselves in the foot. I would guess that only 2% have actual glitches.

I would further submit that the other distros have the same problems as KM; Video drivers, lirc drivers (remote control), and tuner compatibility. This is because there is so much hardware variety and only so many OSS developers, but I'll suggest that because KM is a lighter-weight OS these issues are easier to solve. Generally, if you stick with hardware in the linux sweet-spot (9-36 month old technology. IMO) you can't go wrong.

And I'll further agree with the sentiment: If you want a desktop box use mythbuntu, if you want a settop box, KM is the way to go.

You must also factor in the support group that this forum provides. Top notch.

As someone else already pointed out the ultra-succinct install guide is; "Buy tier 1 hardware, put it together, boot from the CD, answer the installers questions."

On the other hand, even those LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOONG instructions, frankly aren't that long. If the R5F27 Hints is more than 10-12 pages I'd be shocked. The same goes for the one on the wiki. When was the last time you saw a commercial installation guide for a system this complex that was so short? Most of them are books about 1-2" thick and a couple hundred pages long. Just because we live in a sound bite world with an average attention span shorter than a gnat's thingee doesn't mean that everything can or should be reduced to a paragraph or less.

Let me first describe myself as a "distro whore"-
I test linux distributions out just for the fun of it now and then.

I bear very little loyalty to any distribution based on past experiences; I go with what gets me the best results for the least work, whatever the need I am dealing with is.

I have literally tried at least a few dozen distributions, and when I say "tried" I mean installed, configured with full gui (bells and whistles), at least tested proprietary 3d drivers for gaming and ensured internet and office suite operation.

I have found no linux DVR/PVR solution that compares to MythTV and I have tried MythTV in a few distros, including Debian, Mepis, Gentoo, Ubuntu and one or two others.

KnoppMyth is better for a PVR, period.
In fact, I find KnoppMyth better for a combination PVR/Desktop computer than any other distro, once I have installed KDE in KnoppMyth.

I will also say that I am far from impressed by Ubuntu in any form, on the whole- I find it less configurable and more "Windows-like" than any other distro I have tried except maybe Xandros or Linspire.
This wouldn't be so bad, except the reasons I find it similar to Windows happen to be the same reasons I no longer USE Windows.

KnoppMyth may not be as "polished" as other distributions in some ways, but if a PVR/multimedia backend is a main goal in a computer, KnoppMyth is the best solution I have found.

Or else I would use something else.
And note that my frontends are nearly always on other distributions.

I run Ubuntu gutsy on my laptop and the Ubuntu mythtv-frontend app
installed from apt-get / synaptic talks to Knoppmyth just fine and required
no more setup then a Knoppmyth frontend. (Delaying upgrade in gutsy
until we get the 0.21 MythTV release for my Knoppmyth BE) It is real
nice to have a functional laptop that also doubles as a TV for watching in
bed.

I already knew the tweaks to do from working with Knoppmyth. Things
like mounting /myth across the network to the BE to get videos, fstab
settings, users and permissions, samba tweaks...

I suspect that the backend setup under ubuntu would be more of a
challenge. All the stuff that the KM install scripts do would probably have
to be done by hand.

Cliff

_________________
R5F27 using R5F1 Nvidia drivers
HD-5500 analog from NTSC Sat Rx, with OTA DVB too
GeForce MX-440 SVideo tvout to a TV
Older dual core 3.4ghz Intel CPU
Asus P5PE-VM Motherboard
2 GB RAM
1 TB LVM2
VirtualBox
Samba

First let me say, I am not a veteran of Linux or Knoppmyth.
That said I do have considerable experience in that other commercial O/S.

I have setup Knoppmyth and it is really straight forward, If you have a tier 1 system it usually just works. I have a couple of Tier 2 recycled junk systems and everything I needed to install those and get them running was in this vast forum.

I have also setup both a commercial app and a free app for PVR functionality on a commercial O/S. I didn't find them any easier to get running and functional than Knoppmyth.

Now on the subject of install Guides on my First install just learning Knoppmyth, I thought you've got to be kidding this is it. But essentially the superior installer even in R5a30.1 was better and more complete than a commercial app.

Now most of the install guides you see today. Usually titled Hints and Tips is a document that is very useful for understanding some of the process and functionality, but those are built for an Upgrade from the previous version.
They address everything you should do before you tackle the install.

I have heard them documented to the "Drunken Monkey" level. That is a good comparison, if you follow that guide on your hardware I would guess 98% of the upgrades are absolutely successful. It is all that other stuff we do like running multiple Slave BE/Remote Front Ends that generate all the questions.

Knoppmyth is the Best it flat out makes the most straight forward PVR appliance out of that hardware the is mostly in the Linux Sweetspot.

My .02

_________________
KnoppMyth R5.5
MBE: AMD64 3400+, K8N Neo4 Plat., 1Gig, Asus Extreme N6200, 320G pata, 2x320Gsata, 750Gsata, PVR-150 Retail w/Blaster
SBE: AMD XP2000, GA 7ZMMH, 1 Gig, XFX 256M 6200, 20 Gig, PVR-150 Retail w/Blaster
SBE: AMD Dur1800, 512M, PVR500

I have been using KnoppMyth for a few years now, and it has been a great experience. A friend of mine uses MythTV on Ubuntu and likes it a lot. He has never used KnoppMyth. My hard drive finally died last week, and I decided to give MythBuntu a try. I spent two days working with it, and I went running back to KnoppMyth.

MythBuntu is really just a full desktop operating system running MythTV as a program. If that is what you want, fine. But I have a dedicated system for MythTV, and the whole ubuntu (minus GNOME and KDE) just seemed too heavy for me. Also, MythBuntu just doesn't work with my hardware very well. The installer claimed to have configured Myth for PVR-350 output, but it didn't work. KnoppMyth just works with a PVR-350. Also MythBuntu didn't configure my remote control (Hauppauge silver) correctly, KnoppMyth does. I love the MythBuntu MythTV control panel, and I hope that KnoppMyth adopts something similar in the future. Still, it's not a deal-breaker. Another great feature of MythBuntu is the ability to do network updates (update via apt-get), but again, this isn't enough to make MythBuntu worth it.

My recommendation is this: if you want a computer running MythTV and you are willing to spend some time making the hardware work, then MythBuntu should be fine for you. If you are looking for a DVR appliance that works exceptionally well "out-of-the-box," then use KnoppMyth. MythBuntu seems like a great project, and there are many people putting a lot of effort into making it work, but for me, KnoppMyth just can't be beat as a DVR.

I personally use Knoppmyth but have helped friends setup and use Mythbuntu. I also play around with Mythbuntu now and again too.

I disagree with the views that Mythbuntu is just Ubuntu with MythTV on top. I feel a more accurate description would be "Distro based of Xbuntu optimized for MythTV".

Currently Mythbuntu has more graphical tools which can ease some of the initial setup burdens and anxiety newbies have such a video card drivers, Frontend/Backend Setup, and Remote Selection. Hardware support is close KM has more optimized configs for TV cards, Video Cards, Sound Cards, and multimedia devices. KnoppMyth has more extras included as well, thumbnail generator, Miro, and more. Mythbuntu uses Ubuntu and it's own Aptitude source, this make updates to OS and MythTV easy.

All and all both distros have great features and I don't think is a wrong choice. Another nice thing is both KM and Mythbuntu are based off Debian, so searching for a solution/guide for either in this forum and Mythbuntu forums offer great help. Commands are very similar just have to use sudo on Mythbuntu as root is disabled.

All,

first off i want to thank you for such an overwhelming response. I mean this whole heartedly. I've been a member of a LOT of forums over the years and you can always gauge how the user base will be based off your first question to the public and how they respond.

I think more than likely you all of persuaded me to stay with knoppmyth. I dont need a OS I just need the box and to be able to watch what i want. I think I should retract my statement about the pamphlet being "LOOONG". I guess really what i was trying to convey is that, something with so much information is hard for a first time user thinking about undertaking this process.

For example, I've read through the pamphlet but still have a ton of questions, all of which Im sure have been asked. Maybe a more extensive FAQ outside the pamphlet is in order. I know im probably walking on a bunch of toes, you all have a firm grasp of what do do and how to do it. But for a new guy, i couldn't even find the latest build to make a boot cd, nor could i see a place that lists out the build versions and what is the latest until i stumbled onto the wiki.

Next i keep seeing dvr/pvr comments, is there a difference? What about putting my entire dvd collection on my box what is that called? Jmckeown2 you made a great point, you never see all systems normal posts on a forum, and as a result you have a hard time finding what is "normal" in the first place. I'll use the noob outlook again as an example. I see a knoppmyth.net/knoppmyth wiki and of course the forum, thats a lot of information to sift through as a beginner. I dont know im rambling sorry.

I guess really what im trying to say is structure is what people coming from a world of windows and boxes needs to understand a world without.

Now im sure this is where i'll lose a bunch of you but i have a few questions. If you could grant me just a little more of your attention and kindness I'd really appreciate it.

1) What is mythtv as it pertains to knoppmyth what part does what? From nharris' post mythtv isnt in knoppmyth yet...

2) if the answer to the question above answers this one than disregard but, along with watching tv and getting a better guide, i want to put my current dvd's in file form onto my box and watch them through the knoppmyth box, can i do that too?

3) can i do #2 on multiple tv's in my house either over ethernet or having another knoppmyth box networked to my main box, and then in turn connected to my tv?

4) what is the frontend vs the backend. Granted i know the concept i work in databases and front end web servers all day, but how does it pertain to knoppmyth are they two seperate boxes or one box holding frontend and backend information?

5) what is a pvr vs a dvr

6) the spare hardware i had from an old pc, will it work? I already assume i have to get a video card with video in. 3.0 Pentium 4 (hyper thread), 2 gigs of ddr ram, asus P4P800 motherboard, 120 gig ide hard drive (soon to be 4tb if it all works correctly), nvidia 5900 ultra video card (has dvi output, vga output and S video output)... (i'd really like hdmi out to my tv if possible, if it even matters)

7) based on the answer to #1 should i wait until mythtv is integrated before i do this?

i have verizon fios, is it safe to say that if this gets all up and running correctly, i can ditch the HD receiver, get all my program guides through knoppmyth (or the service that provides the listings) and use the box as my dvr as well?

What nharris was meaning, is the lastest version of mythtv is not yet included in knoppmyth.

There is a new version of knoppmyth coming very soon that will include the latest version of mythtv.

_________________
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Scott Walsh
http://zone3.net.nz/

I am going to try and answer these as best I can, but will include another of my "disclaimers"-
I am lazy and rarely do more than the minimum needed at any given time to my my current goals...
My current Knoppmyth setup is only about half of what it used to be and I have done nothing with anything besides the tuner. I HAVE done other multimedia bits before...

On to the questions:

MythTV is the actual software used for TV/multimedia recording and viewing. It can run on any linux distribution, essentially but some are easier than others to set up.
KnoppMyth is a linux distribution which is based on Knoppix- a LiveCD-based distribution which can be installed on a drive but was not originally intended for that purpose. (Knoppix itself is based on Debian linux, one of the most widely used distros, and one of the more popular ones to use for repackaging a new distro.)

KnoppMyth is intended for hard drive installation, but uses a fairly minimal installation of linux to keep footprint small and resources free for recording and so on.
The main point of KnoppMyth is to make getting a fully functioning installation of MythTV as simple as possible.
KnoppMyth was not intended to be a desktop computer OS.


Yes. I have done that in the past, and doubt that this is something that has changed.
It is also possible to watch DVDs using the DVD itself.
Not sure what is required to do either now, as it has been a few versions of KnoppMyth since I have done it.


I have watched live tv streaming from the backend on up to 5 separate computers, watched live and 4 different recordings, and also added other saved file types (movies ,music and pictures) to the mix, just to test everything simultaneously. And this includes a wireless laptop.


The backend is the software that runs the tuner(s) and records programming, as well as making it available to connected systems. It is the server
The frontend is the software for WATCHING shows or using other parts of MythTV.
A single computer can run both backend and frontend, or the backend can be kept as a separate system. I generally keep my backend connected to my tv, and connect remote frontend clients as well.


Personal Video Recorder
Digital Video Recorder
Same thing, slightly different terms
And in reality, MythTV (and of course, KnoppMyth) can be far more than just that- a full-featured home entertainment system pretty much.


Most of my full-on, movies, pictures, multiple frontend client and multiple file type stress testing was done a few years ago using an Athlon XP running around 2Ghz with 1GB of ram (I think) and either a Ti4200 and 6600GT video card (tested with both, either worked fine but only impacted the backend system), connected to a 27" HDTV using a vga cable and a Happauge PVR-350 single tuner card.
Your system should be just fine.


Basically already answered but- each version of KnoppMyth has improved things, but also may add changes that need to be adjusted when upgrading. Sometimes this is a simple process... sometimes a reinstall is easier, I think.

No, unfortunately.
And HD adds another level of pita to the whole process of setting up a dvr computer.
Encryption.

I have FIOS myself, and gave up on using it for HD recording since the hassles just weren't worth it to me.
My hassles:
*HD-5500 tuner card sucks, imo. It can be made to work, but mine has had frequent problems and glitches on top of being a pain to set up in the first place.
*The Verizon box I originally had was the HD-DVR and it is screwy- channel changing was erratic at best and NEVER reliable, due to the codes used to operate that specific box. the SD boxes do NOT seem to have that issue. I am not sure about the HD NON-DVR set top boxes.

The only way to directly use FIOS HD and not need a set top box is with cablecards, like TiVo Series 3. (Well, some channels are in the clear, but fairly few.)


I have been doing other things for the last year or so, and there MAY be changes/improvements that I haven't seen since my KnoppMyth install is out of date, but that should help a bit, I think.