I've been building a KnoppMyth box on and off for a couple of months now. I didn't think my requirements were particularly odd, yet I've been thrust into installing and reinstalling my system with little success.

I am not a whiner.

This is not a rant. I am passionate about open-source, and a true believer in MythTV and KnoppMyth. I am not able to contribute code at this point (obviously, since I don't yet have a working box), so I contributed cash instead.

I am not a UNIX expert, but I'm not a noob either

I've installed several Linux distros and managed to get them working. I'm not afraid to compile a kernel or apt-get a new package. I know vi. I have more experience with other OSes but I'm getting on Linux fast.

My requirements are modest

I want to time-shift HDTV shows, and I want to have "DVD changer" functionality. Both are to be shown on my HTDV via VGA output and all audio should go over S/PDIF to my receiver for decoding. No games. Music is optional. One tuner is sufficient. I will acquire whatever equipment I need to fill this role.

I bought what I thought would be the best for this task:

Abit NF7-M m/b with Nforce2, IGP, and MCP (includes on-board GF4 graphics)
Athlon 2500+ 333FSB Barton core
pcHDTV-2000 ATSC capture card
One 200G IDE disk, two 250G IDE disks
DVD-RW drive
Lite-on wireless keyboard with pointing device (IR)
Silverstone SST-LC01 case
Pioneer VSX-39TX receiver (already had)
Pioneer PRO-610HD TV set (with VGA HD input) (already had)

This configuration is close to vanilla-standard as you can get. Nforce2 audio, onboard GeForce video, one capture card, and VGA output ought to be a walk in the park. But it isn't.

After struggling awhile, I have the video working on my TV set and I can rip and play videos, but without sound. I used the instructions on the KnoppMyth wiki to add digital sound support, and then found that it broke mplayer. (Yes, it was on the page, but at the bottom in a "oh by the way" paragraph. I edited the wiki and made the warning more prominent.) Apt-get fails to update mplayer because it "could not resolve 'marillat.free.fr'". Whatever. I'll work it out.

The ATSC tuner appears to tune stations (from dtvtune) but I get no display at all when trying the "Live TV". I know, I know, "search the archives" and "contribute to the wiki". The archives are filled with useful as well as useless outdated information. It's impossible to tell if the advice given applies to THIS situation at THIS point in time, since many of the messages deal with old versions of drivers or packages. I suspect that following "old" advice may have contributed to some of my problems. The wiki is a huge step in the right direction, as it can be edited to remain up-to-date.

What is my point, after all?

I'm not whining about my system in particular. OK, I AM whining, but ignore that. My point is the difficulty of getting a TiVo-like replacement for HDTV running using KnoppMyth. I have four friends who desperately want to clone my box when it's finished. Cost is no object. Like me, they primarily want to timeshift HD shows -- something which cannot be done for OTA shows with any equipment now on the market. Perhaps it is time to adopt a "reference platform". A PARTICULAR motherboard, processor, capture card, etc. which is guaranteed to work "out of the box". There is NO WAY my friends are going to get a Myth box running unless installation issues are simplified. (And they're not idiots, just linux noobs.)

Joe Barnhart

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You make some interesting points, I would like to point out though that like many other open source projects out there, Knoppmyth as well as MythTV are still just projects. Some people seem to have an easier time of it then others and often for no apparant reason (That I know of). I would like to point out that I am in a similer situation to you (Except the extent of my codeing skills ends at batch scripting) I am capable with other OS's but my Linux skills are lacking. My hardware is different then yours, I went with what I determined to be the Knoppmyth standard and got the Chaintech 7NIF2 and a PVR250. I followed these instructions http://mysettopbox.tv/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1932&highlight=unknown+device+0016 and my box worked with sound in about 45 minutes. I guess the holy grail would be that you could take this software and plop it in to your box and it would fly without issues, but we all know that it is unlikely to happen very soon. (Perhaps if Cesman had won big in Vegas )

I treat this as a project that will help me learn Linux and give me a cool toy to play with. YMMV.

Before anyone says it, I am unsure if this belongs in Installation.

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MBE:
Chaintech 7NIF2
AMD Athlon XP 2500+
Samsung 160 GB
Hauppauge PVR-250
Knoppmyth R4V4.1

SBE:
TBA

while I appreciate you saying you are not whining, it sounds alot like whining, and the setup you want is not a particularly vanila setup. I want a setup like that too, but have not been able to afford it for over a year now. HDTV is not common at this point. I think one of the developers has a card, but does not receive good signal at his location. It is extremely complicated to automagically decide to setup for hdtv vs standard, or digital audio vs analog, so the devs to this point have done the most logical thing and defaulted everything to the most common setup being standard tv with analog sound, and I think have done a very good job of getting that to work. I know there is some development going into getting pvr350 tvout to work much easier (not sure of the progress, but I now it's being looked at.) so things are being looked at to make things easier, however the least common and most expensive setups will most likely be last, because it's just not what the developers have or are using.

As for the site that won't resolve, that site unfortunately moved after the last version was released. it will be fixed in the next version, until then it has been covered in the forums.

As for the wiki, I am glad you are using it. I put it up for exactly that purpose, hoping that the content would be dynamic and could easily be kept up to date without having to read through 5 and 10 page forum posts, and so that people could do like you did and make warnings more prominent in the proper place in the documentation, or add notes like on my setup it required this other thing etc. I think the wiki has done well so far, and I would encourage anyone like yourself that does not have the development skills to contribute code, to at least if you find something that you know is an error in the documentation correct it or add notes, grammer etc, us geeks aren't always the best technical writers.

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Xsecrets

Getting digital audio working with MythTV was apparently being out on the bleeding edge, as I ended up having to try many things on my own.

Getting that AND HDTV working is definitely way out on the bleeding edge. There's no way to expect that to be a highly supported and easy-to-do thing. Just getting MythTV up and running, even with KnoppMyth, is beyond 90% of all computer owners, I would say.

As for the HOWTO, you're right, I did mention mplayer at the end of the article, because the main focus was getting the digital audio working with MythTV live TV and recorded programs. Which it does. Only after then did I find out that it broke mplayer, and thus added the note.

Why the frell is this in Installation?

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cesman

When the source is open, the possibilities are endless!

Description of this forum:
"KnoppMyth related installation problems or questions."

Did I place it in the wrong forum? Reading the forum it seems like 50% of the posts get in the wrong topic area. Perhaps you could make the guidance a little clearer on the index page of the forum.

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Right, problems or questions not comments or 'this isn't as easy as I'd like'. You didn't state one problem or question you had while installing KnoppMyth. Trying to get S/PDIF working is not an installation issue(KnoppMyth -> Installation), because that isn't something that should work out the box (currently). I don't mind the critique at all... I know KnoppMyth has some short coming (one of hte reasons R5 is taking some time... I've tried to guide folks of where to post what, but hell that does seem to be working...

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cesman

When the source is open, the possibilities are endless!

I guess the devil is in the definitions, in this case. I naively expected an easier time of S/PDIF and ATSC tuner support. Both are still not working, but I'm making steady (and slow) progress. When I get them working, I will post my results here, and on the wiki.

Perhaps my comments should have gone into KnoppMyth General because I see an opportunity for KnoppMyth to be even easier to install than it is right now. And I see a pressing need for it. Just see the discussion of the Broadcast Flag on the EFF web site and their conclusion -- everyone should build their own Myth box ASAP! And what is the fastest path to MythTV? KnoppMyth.

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Currently, you just need to install the kernel w/ pcHDTV support to get pcHDTV working (gvien good signal, etc.). The next release will have pcHDTV in the kernel out the box.

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cesman

When the source is open, the possibilities are endless!

Your point is well taken. If I were able to contribute at this point, I would contribute in the KnoppMyth setup and install area. I would:

LVM partition for /myth straight out of the box.
The notion of "profiles" for installation
Guide page for those who want to contribute but have no idea where to begin

Using LVM for the /myth partition seems like a win-win. It costs nothing and allows users to expand their volume space painlessly at a later date. A perfect match to MythTV.

For "profiles" I would ask users at setup what their basic goals are: ATSC and HD, analog TV, digital vs. analog sound, etc. and use that information to customize the basic install of MythTV. I agree it's too hard to automatically determine this stuff -- so ask the user at install time.

The guidance is something I've been dealing with for awhile. Obviously, if someone wants to contribute documentation they need to bone up on wiki commands. But if I wanted to customize the install script, where do I start? (I assume I should acquaint myself with the Knoppix web site.) What skills do I need? Suppose I want to add to Myth, where do I start? There is a LOT of assumed knowledge that prevents people who could contribute from doing so. This is probably the first page I'd put up on the wiki. I'd do it now, except I don't have the answers to any of these questions!

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Yep, found that (searched the archives!) but I still get a blank screen when I play the TV. I'm sure it's an idiot problem, but I'm not alone. http://mysettopbox.tv/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1107 Of course, this is about 4v2 and I'm using 4v4, so does it apply, or not? It's impossible to know. That's why searching the forums is problematic at best. I am very enthusiastic about the wiki. I'll be starting some pages over there as soon as I know enough to not embarrass myself too much.

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Blank screen anything in the log? Have you checked the pcHDTV forum?

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cesman

When the source is open, the possibilities are endless!

getting started in the wiki is really very easy. simple text usually works, and no more than a couple of minutes on the wikimarkup page should get you up to speed on the simple formating stuff.

As for how to contribute to the install process, this is probably not a good time to start trying. currently knoppmyth uses console based install, and is being rewritten for graphical install at the moment for R5, so anything you did would most likely not translate well, once R5 is out then I'm sure the devs would take any suggestions or better yet code that you can provide.

As for install options, I agree that it probably needs more options, and with a graphical installer it will most likely be cleaner to implement more options, although the question then becomes just where do you stop, since there are almost unlimited combinations. At some point after R5 has been released we probably do need to start a thread or have an irc discussion about what would be a good menu tree to provide more install options, that are technically feasible.

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Have a question search the forum and have a look at the KnoppMythWiki.

Xsecrets

After a weekend of grinding away at my issues, I finally have a MythTv box that can record HDTV, record, rip, and play DVDs, and play MP3s. The S/PDIF out is working (thanks ceenvee703) and I'm able to view on my HDTV set at 1920x1080 using XvMV.

I have a couple of nasties to resolve:

1. Watching TV live almost always locks up the display.
2. Mplayer (under MythVideo) leaves a black bar at the bottom of my display
3. Recorded HDTV is choppy on one station only.

The first is probably related to the "no signal" problem with my pcHDTV card. Over a year ago it was reported on their forum that MythTv would lock up if you tried to tune a station with no signal. Evidently it hasn't been fixed yet.

Mplayer has an option "-geometry X:Y" which should be able to offset the display, but it doesn't work for some unknown reason. No combination of modelines has been able to stretch the display vertically.

The choppy HDTV is not related to signal strength. I think the station is using some encoding other than 1080i and the player is getting confused or bogging while trying to upscale it to my set. It needs further investigation.

Of course, all of these problems are Myth problems -- not KnoppMyth issues. I should post elsewhere to seek advice on these!

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Glad to see you have your problems resolved! Now that your boxen is working, I cannot wait to see what you can contribute to the project!

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cesman

When the source is open, the possibilities are endless!